Responsible Online Gambling and Gaming

David:                   Welcome to Disarming Data. We're looking at data and privacy from the perspective of two generations.

Paige:                   I'm Paige Biderman. I'm a millennial who grew up in the tech generation.

David:                   I'm David Biderman, I'm the boomer. I don't know anything about tech. I usually lose my cell phone rather than use my cell phone, I'm a tech novice. In this podcast, we'll be having conversations with cyber hackers, privacy experts, and guardians of security who can explain some of this to me.

Paige:                   And Dad, you forgot about whistleblowers and other people who are interesting and influential to us.

David:                   And Paige, you forgot to say Thank you for listening to this show.

Paige:                   Thanks for listening.

                                Welcome to Disarming Data. Today, we have a really awesome guest on named Jeremy Edge. He is a licensed counselor and he specializes in working with teens and adults that are struggling with screen use and problematic screen use. He is the founder of a counseling practice called Escapingthe and after he personally experienced some issues with gaming disorder.

                                He's devoted his life to helping people recover from problematic screen use. And so today we're going to talk to him a lot about gambling addiction and the issues surrounding that. So welcome on, Jeremy.

David:                   Just want to say thank you very much for joining us and I read about you and an article about gambling addiction and the online gambling and prevalence. So I thought it'd be really interesting to talk about that. Our first question, which Paige usually asks, so I'm stepping on her toes already. Just tell us about yourself, where you grew up, where you went to school, how you got involved in what you're doing, why you like what you're doing? And then we can talk about some details. That'd be great.

Jeremy:                Sure, sure. Well, thank you for having me on again guys. I really appreciate it. I grew up in the Houston area in Texas, just north of Houston in Kingwood. And so I grew up there, went to college, my master's degree in counseling. My wife and I met, we moved to St. Louis for a little bit for her residency. She's a pediatrician and then we moved to Dallas where she's from and I started to open up my practice in 2019.

                                Before that, I saw that there was a lot of issues with teenagers in particular about screen use and video games and technology and pornography really were like the biggest pieces. But the more that I worked in my practice, I opened up my practice and saw that gambling was a big part of it, a big issue.

                                Gambling is now a part of a lot of video games, but also online gambling is very prevalent. It's legal in a lot of places, and so it's very easy. A lot of access is there for online gambling. And I work with clients on a regular basis trying to find balance with gambling and how to do that in a okay way or just be able to completely abstain from it. It's a really tricky world out there with the online space that it obviously in person gambling is a big challenge, but with the online space now you can gamble really anywhere.

Paige:                   What made you want to go into addictions or screen use addictions as your main practice point? Was there just a moment for you that made you realize it was kind of becoming much bigger in society?

Jeremy:                Yeah, it's a good question. So I was working for a group practice at the time with other counselors, about 30 or so other counselors, and I enjoyed the group practice feel. I noticed though that there weren't really any providers in the area in the Dallas area and in Texas and the US there's very little number of providers who were specializing in gaming disorder and screen use issues.

                                The DSM-5 is the diagnostic and statistical manual for all mental health disorders and internet gaming disorder was in the back of the DSM for needing further research. So it's coming down the pipe, gambling disorder is a full diagnosis and has been for a little bit. And so I noticed, well, this is something that's very prevalent in today's society. I've noticed this impacted my life.

                                It's impacted the clients I've been working with. And so I google searched Escapingthe.com and no one had taken that domain, so I bought it and was like, "Screw it, let's do this." And so I loved the counseling and therapy world and thought, you know what, let's try to make this happen to help a lot of people specifically in this area because not really many were doing that.

David:                   On the gambling itself. Tell us about how online gambling developed, because you must have watched that and then where it's legal and how people probably mostly kids, but tell me if it's adults too, who get wrapped up in this and how does it all work? I don't know that world at all, if you were to introduce our listeners.

Jeremy:                Sure, sure. So gambling can be in the form of going to a casino physically, obviously drive to gamble someplace. You can also gamble online through different means. So something like DraftKings or something, even the stock market, there's a lot of day trading that can happen. There's gambling within loot boxes, which is a mechanic within a video game.

                                A lot of people can engage in gambling in just many different ways. And so a lot of it is sports gambling, I see a lot of times if there's a basketball game going on or a baseball game or there's really a sports game going on throughout the entire world, really you can gamble on anything these days. And so if you just are able to find sites that specifically are for sports betting, then you can put a wager on a team or a player and be able to obtain some winnings based on how they perform or how the team performs or if they win or not.

                                And so if you're looking for trying to get a quick buck or you feel like you're not able to make rent or just want to make some extra money or think you can beat the market, there's a lot of different ways that people these days I've seen with my clients have tried to obtain some good bit of income from gambling that way.

Paige:                   Obviously, there's healthy and then addictive behavior. Do you think the line is crossed when it comes to... because in my mind it's so easy when it comes to substance abuse addiction to just see like, oh, this is probably problematic at this point. Whereas with other addictions that are now becoming more prevalent, it's much harder I think to see where the line is much grayer. And so I was wondering if you could talk about the science for people that may be struggling that is becoming more problematic.

Jeremy:                For gambling, what we look at is, is there's some similarities between a substance addiction. So gambling is a behavior, so it's a behavior addiction or a process addiction. And so if there's impaired control where they can't control, they try to stop gambling but they can't. There's a lot of preoccupation. If there's a focus or a thought about gambling or when they can gamble next or their past gambling times and thinking about that and they are distracted at work or distracted at home with their families, then that can be a pretty clear sign.

                                If they're gambling with more and more money, if there's a tolerance being built up. They bet just maybe 50 bucks and then they get to a hundred and they increase the amount of spending. That's a tolerance being built up and that's another clear sign. This needs to happen really for six months to a year.

                                So for it to be a full diagnosis should be identified as a gambling disorder. But in general, if it's causing problems in their overall health and wellbeing for their entire life, we look at their mental health, their physical health, their relationships, their career or their school, if they're in school.

                                We look at every area in this person's life and objectively, if gambling is negatively impacting those areas, then it can be something like, "Okay, we need to talk about how to help to get to a different, to a healthier place." Within gambling, it sometimes can be trying to balance it, but also for a period of time it can be good to have a complete abstinence period if need be, or just to have the abstinence be the model that they have that relationship with gambling.

Paige:                   You do recommend with gambling that it needs to become an abstinence in order to meet recovery or make recovery as opposed to balance?

Jeremy:                I think I've noticed with my clients in particular, gambling is something that they see like, hey, this is a fun activity that I've done either in the past or with some friends or to try to make a quick buck. And so I've noticed that there's a trend usually with my clients is they want to have a complete absence relationship with gambling. Any type of activity can be in moderation.

                                However, there's a lot of personalities that struggle with moderation. And so at least with games, I compare video games to food or technology use to food. We can't completely get rid of technology use, but how we're able to modify it or be able to interact with it in a healthy way is impactful. And so I've noticed that with my clients at least trying to abstain from gambling entirely is a good place for them to go with treatment. However, if they can set up protective factors and healthy boundaries around gambling and they really want to have some type of relationship with it then, okay, but it's up to the person, up to what they truly want and desire.

David:                   How do you set boundaries if it's something that's so compulsive? You know what I'm saying?

Jeremy:                So there's online boundaries that we can set with software. Something for teenagers or parents can put Net Nanny or Bark or some examples. Freedom is another great app that helps provide some good blocks and get rid of online distraction. We can physically put up some boundaries of, okay, I'm not going to, if I know I'm going to gamble at this certain time of day or if I'm triggered whenever this happens, to try to remove those triggers, be able to put yourself in a situation that you most likely will not gamble.

                                So if you know you're alone at the hours of 11:00 PM to midnight then to be able to do something else or set up yourself for success by not giving yourself access to some of those things. Getting really good support also from your support system around you, either spouse or family is also really good to help set up some boundaries with this activity.

David:                   Can you just give us some anonymous stories, sort of examples of people who've come to you and what issues they've been facing and how you've solved them?

Jeremy:                Within the gambling context, I have seen that there's been a increase in the sports betting side. And so what I've worked with my clients on is being able to completely abstain from that activity. And so the really big desire for a lot of people with gambling is to seek excitement, to seek financial stability and to be able to address boredom.

                                Can I get rid of boredom? And so it's also could be an escape. It could be an escape from something that they feel like there's a lot going on with their life and they want to just get a fun escape. So what I've done with my clients is be able to completely put up boundaries away from this. So they get rid of, delete all their accounts, they can talk to their bookie or they can set up a way to block accounts so they can't get back onto these sites that allow you to gamble.

                                They talk to their bank, you're able to say, "If you just see us transaction, don't let me put any money into this company to gamble." And then we interact with trying to find, well, what's the motivation behind it? And so a lot of times if it's finances, if they really feel like they're struggling financially and say, "Well, what can you do to help with your job, with your career to help meet the financial means that you need to. If you feel like you're strapped for cash right now, trying to pay for a house, trying to pay for a car or something, what does it look like to be able to either be content with what you have now or to be able to work harder in your career to get to the financial place that you are desiring from gambling?" And then we address some of the triggers and some of the ideas of, okay, so I want this to escape or I feel like I'm really bored, there's nothing else to do that's fun in my life.

                                And so what I do is try to transfer some of those excitements into this other activity. So if they're seeking a rush from gambling, gambling has what's called variable reward. Whenever you gamble, you don't always win, but sometimes you do. And whenever you do, it's exhilarating. It's fantastic. And it's one of the most addicting things a human can engage in is an activity that has variable reward.

David:                   Oh, why? Wow. Why is that?

Jeremy:                That reinforcement is it's random and whenever it's just has a really big spike in dopamine, our neurochemical in our brain that's in charge of pleasure. And so the randomness to it provides a sense of, okay, well what if? I get this could be really exciting. It's just components of ourselves that we really enjoy something that's not all the time guaranteed, but sometimes we'll hit it big.

                                This can be with relationships, this can be with a job, this can be even checking emails. You may get a really good email. It's like this is going to make my career. And so there's a variable reward in a lot of things that we engage in. But gambling obviously is a huge variable reward component. And so if someone's seeking that rush and that thrill from variable reward, what we do is say, okay, so where can you find enjoyment and maybe risk in a healthy way?

                                Maybe they can get involved in some type of rock climbing activity or get involved in some activity that can provide some risk, but it's more safe and secure than gambling with thousands of dollars. Maybe if it's a way to just get away from normal everyday life. If they want an escape, maybe they could get into a really good book, get into a different hobby, get into something else that's going to provide them with a sense of escape that doesn't have to be with this activity of gambling. So there are ways to transfer some of that. That I think helps a lot of my clients.

Paige:                   You may not know the answer to this question, but have you seen that the dopamine spikes from things like gambling are just as high as from what I can think of is drugs or whatever else people externally use to seek those dopamine spikes and does it lead to long-term depression as a result?

Jeremy:                So I'm actually going through a training right now for an internet gaming disorder certifications. It's a 15-hour CE course and basically one of the slides, I can't remember exactly what they said, but gaming and in particular has around, I believe the same pleasure release as I believe food, maybe sex, I can't remember.

                                I'd have to look at the numbers, but it's a pretty good bit. Drugs are extremely high. Something like crack cocaine or methamphetamines is extremely 4000% of a release versus something that is less than that, very small. And so I'd have to look at the exact statistics on that, but yes, it is, it can be compared to other activities. And when that's done over time, a long period of time and that's the activity of choice of gambling is activity of choice that provides them that sense of fun and release and nothing else, then yes, I think addiction and depression can come from that activity if it's exacerbated and done over and over again.

Paige:                   So have you found then that people with addictive personalities tend to activities that give them huge rushes to try and get over their addictions such as rock climbing or skydiving or whatever sort of exhilarating activities there are out there? Is that common?

Jeremy:                It can be common to jump from one addiction to the other? Yes, it can. So it can be common where if someone is really into gambling and really disordered in their gambling to then go to, okay, well I'm going to go and do this, this other activity that can maybe be safer or better. And if we're not careful, then yes, that activity could become addictive. Even work can become addictive in a problematic way in how we engage with it.

                                If we look at holistically in a person's life. However, I think if we look at some underlying factors in it, if the person is moving towards the activities and they're not addressing their trauma, if they're not addressing some underlying factors of a problematic relationship or something that's, that they're carrying with them, then yes, that will continue. It doesn't matter what they're doing, it's going to continue in a problematic way.

                                So it's really important to be able to address some of these pieces of what's causing more deeper than just the behavior. But yes, it is common sometimes for a person to go from let's say alcohol, to gambling to games or something else if we're not intentional about how, what's going on behind that.

Paige:                   And so do you recommend then 12 step programs or do you find that they don't address the major issues that are underlying causes behind gambling addictions or online gambling addictions?

Jeremy:                Whenever someone's going through an addiction, it can be a very lonely and isolating experience. It can be a lot of shame and guilt around it and 12 steps I think are a fantastic place to get genuine support, to be able to get others around you to help provide you with support and guidance and say, look, I've been there. We're working through this together. And so I think it can be a really good thing.

                                I have had some feedback that, well, I'm not a spiritual person. I don't believe in God or I don't believe in that faith aspect of it. And so at times there can be, I think a struggle with being able to buy into some aspects of a 12 step program. However, there are other groups that don't have to be specifically around the faith piece, Computer Addicts, Gaming Anonymous, I believe is one example of it's not, it's a 12 step group, but there is not a faith piece component to it.

Paige:                   Oh, okay.

Jeremy:                Online Gamers Anonymous does as an example. So again, that's within the gaming piece, but there are some communities out there that provide that. But I think it is a fantastic resource for a lot of people.

Paige:                   And are you finding that you're having to start to work with kids that are younger and younger and younger in general with these problems? Is it just developing into a much wider age range than it used to?

Jeremy:                Yes. The average gamer, again, 33 years old, but gambling in particular I think is an older person's activity, older person's sport. However, there's been more and more exposure because of video games with loot boxes to be exposed to gambling components and mechanics. And so kids very young who are able to play a game like Counterstrike Go for example, are Valorant, Counterstrike Go really. They are exposed to loot boxes. And so anyone right now in the US can open up a loot box of any age exposing them to the excitement and the thrill and the rush of a slot machine of gambling.

David:                   What's a loot box?

Jeremy:                It's something where you are able to see an item on your screen and you're able to look at the item and say, all right, so I could open up and get something that is very common or it's something that is very rare. There's about a 0.4% chance to get a very rare item, but there is more of, if you get the rare item, it's very rewarding, it feels really good, you won't get that every time. And so there's chance and there's randomness to it.

David:                   Variable rewards thing. I had to study for some case, we had to interview a bunch of experts on addiction and they talked about these mice and yet, and the thing was real where they would get, it was just random. They would peck at something and sometimes they get their reward, sometimes they wouldn't. It would be either some sort of drug or whatever, but it was really just driving the mice crazy. They would just keep pecking and pecking and pecking. Anyway, I don't know if that rings true with you.

Jeremy:                And so yes, it's classical conditioning, I believe is another piece of it where yes, there's a lot of behavior research that's around that piece, but can you see my screen here guys? Can you see the, okay, you can see my mouse here. So this is an example of a loot box within a game called Counterstrike Go. And you can get one of these by just playing the game for free.

                                And now, these items in blue, if you see on the side here, it's blue. These are very common to get, when you open up the box, it's very common to acquire one of these, but as you go down the line, it gets more and more rare. And these red skins are very rare, and this is the most rare item, which is a knife, which is about a 0.4% chance open up one of these. And basically these are skins.

                                If you open up this little pistol skin here, you can acquire this in the game, you can play with this skin doesn't make you have better shot or anything. It just makes it look, the weapon look cool. So when you open it up, you have to a key like this, and when you open it looks like this.

Paige:                   Oh.

Jeremy:                You can see all the items scroll across the screen, hope to get a rare one, hope to get a rare one. Oh cool. This is the skin. Now you have in your inventory and you can play with this in the game. It just makes your gun look cool. It doesn't, again, change your gameplay, but it's the same thing as a slot machine. It's the same mechanic, even visually as a slot machine, it's going left to right versus vertical.

                                You have all the options of what you could acquire in this standard slot machine. Hope to get a jackpot. You're not always going to get a jackpot. Sometimes you might, and when you do, it feels severely really, really good. Loot boxes are banned in Japan, I believe, Belgium, China, and it's not in Germany, I believe, but not in the US. And so there's some legislation out there trying to ban loot boxes.

Paige:                   And is it because they're so addictive that they're banned?

Jeremy:                I believe it's because it's gambling.

Paige:                   Oh, okay.

Jeremy:                Any kiddo, again can open up into gamble and to open up a loot box, but loot boxes, it is gambling. It is a gambling component. And so I think that's why they're trying to put on a little of these limitations because it's gambling.

Paige:                   That's so interesting. And kids love that.

Jeremy:                The piece with kiddos is a lot of times I've noticed at least kids play games for socialization. They want to interact with others online, either with social media or whatever to interact and get to engage with others. But the gambling side of it, I think that can be really attractive to teens if they are acquiring items, if they'd like to acquire items within a game of some kind.

                                Even games itself of going through the game and trying to navigate your place in the world is gambling. Even within that, you're not always going to open up a crate and find something great, but sometimes you may. And so there's chance and there's randomness in drops in games. And so I think there are gambling components in a lot of games and that can be addictive I think for a lot of kids. I think, I hope answered your question there, Paige, I went on a tangent.

Paige:                   And do they set up online sites in ways to be addictive? Is that the goal of online gambling sites or no, not as much? When you go to DraftKings, I'm not a huge sports better, but I've done it. But I feel like there is this component where it's just screaming for you to come back almost.

Jeremy:                So I think gambling sites are there to make money and they're hoping to get what's called whales, meaning someone who's going to spend a lot of money within their platform. And so a whale is someone who will go on DraftKings and spend thousands of dollars on betting versus someone who goes on bet's $10, $20 bucks every now and then. And so they're hoping to get people to spend more and more money on the platform so they make more money.

                                These incentives you see of, hey, we'll give you the first hundred bucks, well, that's a hook. It's enticing you to say, well enjoy this experience and when you enjoy the experience, oh, what's another hundred bucks of my own money? It's not a big deal. Oh, I'll just real quick double it. Or you get an incentive, the more that you gamble, you get more rewards. So it is designed to keep you to come back for more and more. And there is an addictive quality to that piece too.

Paige:                   Yeah, it's interesting too because it's like you never really hear that much about people gambling, but now I feel like, especially in the sports betting world, it seems like more... I remember there was a guy a couple years ago who it was, he was like the sons and four guy for the NBA and it put a lot of money. And then recently, I think it was Philly's in Houston, I think. There was this guy named Mattress Mike who made huge social media. No, he knows what I'm talking about.

Jeremy:                Yeah.

Paige:                   Everyone was talking about Mattress Mike, and I think he had a million dollars on the Astros winning. I'm pretty sure that's what it was.

Jeremy:                So Mattress Mack is-

Paige:                   Mattress Mack.

Jeremy:                Yep. I'm trying to find the exact number. But yes, it was the biggest payout in sports betting history.

David:                   Oh, come on.

Jeremy:                The biggest payout when the Astros won the World Series in sports betting history.

Paige:                   Yeah and everyone was talking about it too, because it was like this older guy and he owns a mattress store. And so everyone was like, oh, he won $72 million.

David:                   What? Oh, oh, is he the guy that gave all his employees a bonus or something like that, or I'm getting them-

Jeremy:                Yeah. So my brother's in Houston, and so they... let's see. I guess it was maybe some other team. Oh, it was March Madness. And so if Houston won or if Houston got to the finals or if they won, then all of your furniture would be paid for. If you bought something within that month, he would give you a check for all that stuff. So he is a big gambler in Houston. Yes, Mattress Mack is definitely a huge gambler.

Paige:                   That's funny. But do you think it's becoming much more appealing to people too because now there's names or faces almost to the gambling world? Obviously at poker, there's been famous poker players and stuff, but I feel like it's this first time where it's sports betting and winning has become cooler than it used to be in a way. In my mind when I was little betting on sports was like, you'd go to the horse track and it would be this old guy betting on whatever it may be. But now I feel like it's much a wider landscape.

Jeremy:                It's more accessibility. Yeah, there's a lot more people doing it. I think it's more normalized. And so I think there's a lot more people that are engaging with it. And so it's providing just a little bit more of, oh, this is an opportunity. I could do this, or I could maybe win some money this way. I could get a quick buck this way. And so I think some of it can be incentivized by, oh, I just need to make a quick dollar. I want this money.

                                But another way is just like, oh, this could be a fun way to engage in the game, or this could be a fun way to really enjoy sports. Fantasy football is a fun activity, but again, essentially it's gambling. It's saying, am I going to be able to bet on basically this player and this team providing the best results? And so there's a lot of different ways that we are able to normalize, I think gambling in today's day and age.

Paige:                   So, you work a lot with teenagers that have gaming addiction.

Jeremy:                I do.

Paige:                   Is it that parents are starting to come to you, or is it the teenagers that are coming to you and is it hours of playing a day or is they don't want to go to school? Or what does gaming addiction look like?

Jeremy:                So right now, a lot of parents are coming to me saying that their teenager is struggling in school. That's a big, really big red flag or they're gaming in school. COVID has exacerbated a lot of online time and video games in particular is an activity that a lot of teenagers go to for socialization, but also for fun. They don't want to focus on a math problem, so they just alt tab over to a game or talk to someone through Discord or something like that.

                                So there's a lot of issues I think just with kids spending a lot of time online. So some teenagers are coming to me, college students wanting to get to a different place or dropping out of school. But a lot of parents are saying, "Look, our kiddos are not able to do anything but play games."

Paige:                   And then how do you help kids that are struggling with it? Because is that sort of abstinence as well? Or are there ways to find balance with gaming? So a little bit about me, my dad and my mom sent me to a wilderness therapy program when I was a teenager and then to another facility, but that was complete abstinence for over a year of my life.

David:                   And she's never forgiven us for it, by the way.

Paige:                   Oh no, I'll never get over it. My problem was not gaming, but there were kids that were being sent away at that point actually for gaming-.

David:                   Oh really, I didn't know that, Paige.

Paige:                   ... on gaming addiction. There was a few kids in my program that had been sent there because of that, but obviously they were having no access. So then they would leave the program since they're back in front of their screens and they're having that temptation all over again. A lot of them went straight back into gaming, it felt like.

                                So what are the recommendations for recovery in the gaming world? Because I just felt like that at the end of the day, even if it keeps you away from it for a little bit, once you have that exposure, it's just too much and overload again.

Jeremy:                Yep, yep. No, that's a good point. And it sucks to hear that the wilderness program wasn't... hopefully it was helpful, but it sucks. Maybe there's a negative piece to that. I see a lot of teenagers, a lot of parents saying, look, we need to take our kid to wilderness program, or we needed to figure out some other treatment because they're not able to control their gaming.

                                Ultimately, I see screen use like food and games are like candy. Candy is delicious and good, and it can be really exciting to provide a lot of energy, but if our only source of food, if our only diet is candy, we're going to have problems. It's going to be very unhealthy. And I think the same thing is with video games. Video games is a great place to socialize. It's a great place to be able to connect with your friends and be able to problem solve and strategize and compete and to be able to fail in a safe way.

                                However, if we don't balance it, then I think it can be a huge problem. And so my biggest encouragement for teenagers to say, yes, abstinence can be a portion, but let's focus on balance. Let's focus on being able to play games in a healthy way for it to add value to your life overall rather than taking away from it. So that's where a lot of my work is with teenagers being able to say, look, if you're a teenager, if you're between ages of 8 to 18, really 16 or so, a lot of these kids' life is online.

                                And so if we take away completely gaming, it's like, well, now I don't have access to my friends. I have no sense of mastery or sense of myself. I have no autonomy, no independence. And so there's a lot of issues I think from at least just this generation of complete abstinence forever. I'm good with 60 to 90 days. If they're unable to control their gaming, they're unable to control sleep or do other activities. Sure, let's take a couple of months break, engage in other healthy habits and then reintegrate it in a healthy way. But we have to be really intentional about doing that. But I think if we can focus on balance, I think that can be a really good place to go. Helps them in moderation, helps them in the long term.

Paige:                   And then do you find that a lot of kids that could addicted to gaming, they tend to be people that struggle in social situations face to face and make friends in the online community or is it can happen to anybody?

Jeremy:                I found that and the research shows that kids with ADHD in particular are more prone to abuse games. It's a bidirectional relationship. So when you play games, ADHD symptoms are exacerbated and worsened. And when you have ADHD, video games are more appealing. They are more fun. If you are on the spectrum, you don't have to focus on social dynamics if you're playing a fast-paced first person shooter game, you're focusing on problem solving and strategy and making quick decisions.

                                And so it can be easier for someone on the spectrum to abuse games. And so I've seen those personality traits, those clients struggle a little bit more with gaming, but I've also seen someone who does not diagnose with anything but have maybe a really hard home life or experiencing bullying and focus in getting into a place online where they find mastery, they find they're really good at something and they focus on that. A lot of times teenagers, if they don't feel like they're good in school, they'll try to find mastery online also within games. So there's a couple of things I've noticed with what's encouraging that.

Paige:                   Yeah, and does time just stop when someone's playing the game? This is not one of the war games Halo or stuff, but I was watching a movie about how Tetris got started last night. So then I started playing Tetris on my phone, and I haven't played Tetris in years, but then I ended up playing for an hour and a half. I just was still going and going. And then the levels are like, you get stuck on... I feel like they make the first five levels really easy. And then they level six comes and they know we got them now, our head's in it, and my head was in it, and then I was like I have to pass this level before I go to sleep. And then I probably will never play Tetris again, but it just got me.

Jeremy:                That's a great example. Yeah and I watched the Tetris movie last week, and it was fantastic. I hear you on that.

Paige:                   It's a great movie.

Jeremy:                Yeah, it's really good. Really good. And so I think what is a part of that is games provide a lot of really good positive reinforcement. Same thing with gambling. You're reinforced and usually if you have an early win in gambling, you are more likely to abuse gambling in the future. Like, oh, I can do this again. I can replicate this again. I'm chasing that high. And same thing with games. When you play Tetris and you get that block to fit just right and perfect, you get a ding, you get a sound, you get rewarded with more points, you get immediate positive reinforcement, which makes you want to do that activity again and again and again.

                                And games provide really so much positive reinforcement. And so it's natural for kids in particular to gravitate towards something like that versus studying for a history test where there is some positive reinforcement, but that's super delayed if you do well in studying. And so it's very natural for teens to focus on that, to focus on that activity of games like Tetris or games. And so to go back to what you're asking, Paige, what you're engaging is a state of flow. Whenever you get really into something, after the first 10 minutes, you're really getting into state of flow. And so it's whenever you're really able to think about this activity and so, yes, time does just pass without even knowing.

Paige:                   The gaming industry itself is much bigger than it used to be I'm assuming. I remember, you're in Texas, and I'm pretty sure it's in Texas, the new e-gaming center where it's all these kids and people that are good at gaming. Or I sat next to a guy in a restaurant at an airport who was, he was a YouTube gaming star, and people just watch him play games online, which I was like, that is one of the most bizarre jobs I've ever heard of. But apparently he's making a lot of money doing it.

Jeremy:                So Ninja is a streamer. Ninja, he plays Fortnite, he's played League of Legends. He's a pretty big streamer. He's 31 years old currently. And in 2019, he made $17 million.

David:                   What?

Paige:                   Just playing games.

Jeremy:                Just one year. Just one year, pre-pandemic. People have been able to make a living, a killing really, from streaming.

David:                   Just watching him play games?

Jeremy:                And so what they have is content, right? It's like we were to watch Tetris, we were to watch a soap opera. If we were to watch whatever it may be, Love It or List It. It's whatever it may be. We are watching shows that have value to them. And so if you're playing a video game that you play that game, the same game Ninja plays and you want to get better let's say, and Ninja is really good. Maybe he's like, oh, he is really good. I want to learn how to get better like Ninja. And oh, he's actually kind of funny and oh, he is kind of goofy. It's kind of fun, and oh, he's kind of cute, or he's attractive. I want to watch that person online.

                                So when you combine all those things, streamers can be very lucrative if they're able to market themselves right and if they do it long enough that you can make a living from streaming. And so yes, Esports, going back to your question, Paige, Esports is getting more and more popular and in Arlington not too far away from Dallas, there's a Esports stadium that holds 2,500 spectators over a hundred thousand square feet stadium devoted specifically to Esports. Right now it's the biggest one in the US. There are other stadiums that can be converted to stadiums that are for Esports events, but this is an event stadium just for Esports.

Paige:                   And is it doing well? Is it become pretty successful? Do people actually go to the stadium to watch people play Esports or are there college teams now in Esports or how does it work?

Jeremy:                I went there to get my COVID shot, so it's there, but I haven't seen an actual event there. But there are different games that host events there. Counterstrike, I think is one. There's other games out there that in the Rocket League where they have other games that are hosted there at that location. And Esports is growing as an industry in general. There's more and more people playing different types of games.

                                But again, it's the competitive world within the video game industry. There's games that are single player, there's games that are cooperative, things like that. And so in general, yes, Esports is growing. And so there's currently 57 games that are Esports. And of those 57 games that have Esports teams, there's around 19,000 players in the US and those players have made around $169 million in revenue, earnings rather. And that's the pro world of gaming. They're streaming. You can make a living from streaming or you can be a pro Esports player. Dota 2 is an example of a fast-paced game five versus five game. And in 2021 they had a world championship and their price pool was $40 million.

Paige:                   That's crazy.

Jeremy:                That's just for one game of the 57. Now, not every game of the 57 has the same level of hype as Dota 2. However, there's a lot of money. There's a lot of money that can be there in Esports teams.

Paige:                   Have you found now that clients come to you and they're like, "Well, I want to be like ninja, or I'm close to being like Ninja or whatever? It's less helpful for people that have problematic gaming issues because they're suddenly having all these people to admire and look up to within that industry.

Jeremy:                Yes. Thank you for asking that. So multiple clients have come to me, some in high school, some post high school saying either I want to be a pro streamer or I want to be an Esports player. And the interesting piece is I think, well, what I look at is if you honestly have the skillsets, it's like basketball. If you're really good, if you're LeBron James skill level, if you're like 6'8", sure, you might be able to go pro, but if you're like 5'2" and you can't really dribble and you have one arm, you're probably not going to go pro with basketball.

                                And it objectively, if you play these games and you're not very good or you're 40 years old, your reaction speed is not there as a 13-year-old. And so I look at, okay, so practically could you make this happen? And how can you balance this as a potential yet not neglect your other responsibilities in life too? So I have seen clients like, okay, so I see this as a potential. I want to pursue this as a side hustle. Maybe as I'm going to college, as I'm doing my school, I've seen other clients who unfortunately have not been able to hold a job. They have a lot of malnutrition either going on and, or overweight.

David:                   Come on. No.

Paige:                   And that's just because they're not eating because they're gaming for so many hours a day or they're overeating sitting in gaming?

Jeremy:                Correct. Correct. So I've seen, there's the stereotype I think of sometimes gamers being overweight. In today's day and age with a lot of fast-paced games that like Overwatch 2 or Valorant, let's say, where they're competitive. People are not eating. These kids I'm seeing are really thin because they just are wanting to spend 10 hours a day playing this one game. And if they eat, it's just a super fast meal. It's how can I get as much energy as in me as possible, as fast as possible to get back to the game? So they have, there's malnutrition going on. Their sleep is terrible, they're not sleeping at all.

Paige:                   Right, because games are... I had a roommate for a while who he and his buddies would be playing Call of Duty until 4:00 in the morning. It's kind of a late night activity, right?

Jeremy:                Yep, yep. Some big red flags if gaming is a problem, is just see what's their sleep pattern. If consistently they're getting really irregular sleep patterns, if they're staying up until 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning and then sleeping 12 hours and then staying up again until 5:00 AM, that can be a sign of, okay, so what are they doing online?

Paige:                   And does gambling have the same online gambling? Will people be on those online gambling sites or online casinos for hours and hours and hours as well?

Jeremy:                I haven't seen the direct connection or correlation between someone staying up so late with gambling. I have seen though, during the workday when either markets are open for day trading or when a game is going on for people to spend a lot of time distracted from work, distracted from school, or from their responsibilities during the day to engage in gambling, I haven't seen a direct connection. Sometimes maybe, I haven't seen a direct connection of staying up super late to gamble.

Paige:                   It's so interesting because I was actually talking to our family's bookkeeper about this, Lara, and she was telling me how anytime the stock market is down, her clients are much harder to deal with and much more aggravated and just in general, much more in fear of where their money is going, but also just much ruder in general. And then when the stock market is doing well, she's like my job is so much easier. She doesn't even put the money in the stocks really. She's just a bookkeeper, but she feels all distressed surrounding the stock market, which is really interesting to me.

Jeremy:                I'm not an expert within the stock market field, but I do know that industry I think is also changing , it's pretty interesting. Within the GameStop piece, people made millions of dollars.

Paige:                   Which is crazy. There was kids who had never even owned a stock before who suddenly were GameStop, GameStop, AMC, and I was so confused what was happening. And they're like, we're part of a revolution, and then all of a sudden it's falling and they're like, we got to get out.

Jeremy:                Yeah. That's another piece too, where the online community can really drive profits. Honestly, that was the result of Reddit being able to say, hey, let's make this happen, guys. Forget Wall Street, and let's just see what we can do with this. And some people were able to really make it out on top with a lot of money. So I think the online presence can be very powerful, but also really a question mark of, well, what's going to be the next GameStop? Will that happen again? And what should I invest now to maybe make that happen? Because if so, you wake up the next day with 2 million in your bank account, it's like, well, that's gambling. You don't know what's going to happen next or you don't know what the market's going to do.

Paige:                   Right. So have you found that gaming and gambling addiction can go hand in hand a lot of the time?

Jeremy:                I have. I have. So there's a convergence over that. I'm working with a group actually in Pennsylvania who's talking about the convergence of gambling and gaming that the Better Institute, and there's lot of connections and similarities with that. It's a behavior, it's an activity. It can be a great place to escape. It can be a place to be able to get for a high, it can feel really good. And so I think there is a lot of overlap with those two activities.

Paige:                   And then do states that don't have gambling legal in them, is it because of addiction or is it because of state legislation or whatever it might be? What are the reasons that some states still have not made it legal, whereas in other states... And there's ways around it. I know friends that gamble in, I think New York, it still might not be legal or it wasn't, and they'll like do a VPN address in another state so they can gamble. But is that kind of the main reasons behind it or are you not sure?

Jeremy:                I can't speak exactly to that. I think it's honestly similar. My perspective would be similar to the marijuana issue. Some states have legalized marijuana, some haven't. Gambling I think can be sometimes viewed as a big addiction. It is a big addiction, big problem for a lot of people. However, I think conservative states seem to sometimes not be so progressive on the law around gambling.

                                And so yeah, I think it could be a mix of some politics for sure. I think it could be maybe what type of industries are in the community. Oklahoma, for example, has a huge gambling industry. Texas does not. You have to go physically to Oklahoma to be able to gamble, to place a bet in a slot machine or casino. And so I think it depends on the community around it. And there is more and more awareness coming around it being a disorder, but it's still relatively new. Gambling disorder is still relatively new as far as it being seen as a legitimate addiction problem. But I think it could be a mix of a little bit of the two.

Paige:                   Do kids that you work with and teenagers, are they in a lot of fear in general about the stigma of having to see therapy for something like gaming addiction or gambling addiction? Or is it becoming so prevalent that it's not as big of an issue as it used to be? And how do you deal with that as well? How do you help kids navigate that?

Jeremy:                Yeah, I primarily work with teenage boys, and so the last thing they want to do is come talk to some guy about gaming, about how it's a problem. So I have seen that it is tough. It is tough to be able to sometimes get some buy-in from the counseling process. I think it's something though where I try to help phrase it to the parents and to the kids, like look, we're just going to talk about what's on your mind and in general, what's going on that's not really working out for you. And talk about how to get to a healthier, to a different place. If gaming's a part of it, sure, let's process and talk about help you find ways to help improve your overall value in your life with this activity. And sometimes kids are open to it. Yeah, I have a gaming addiction.

                                They say it themselves, they self-report. I have a gaming addiction that's causing me issues with my school, my work, with my friends or family, whatever. But sometimes the kids are just really ambivalent. They don't care. I've seen it with the younger kids, 12, 13 or so, 14, they don't really identify too much as it being an issue. But the older teens I have, older teens, 18 and even their 20s are like, Hey, I've seen this is legitimately causing some issues. And so they're more open to processing and working through it, but it depends on the kid.

Paige:                   And you have kids yourself. So when you think about the next 10, 15 years in America, do you see it just being a completely different society or the metaverse kind of becoming the future for these kids? Or what does it look like in your mind and how does that, if you don't mind answering, how does that affect how you choose to raise your own children?

Jeremy:                Yes, I do have a six and a three year old right now, and I think that gaming is as an industry is getting bigger and bigger and I think what I see for my kids is being more in the metaverse. I think the VR world seems like they're very much pushing forward in that realm, and I think video games are going to be moving more towards a virtual platform. I saw even today on the Morning Brew, there's a VR headsets thing where it's like a treadmill, it's like a built-in treadmill you can put in your home and you can walk around in the field of walking around in this virtual landscape with this antenna back alien looking thing, holding a backpack thing. Anyways, there's more and more, I think coming about of the metaverse as being a reality for a lot of people, a virtual reality for not just social interactions, but also with video games.

                                And so I think competitive games like Dota 2, Counterstrike, League of Legends going to be more normalized for kids. My kids, when they grow up, and I think the metaverse might be coming around of virtual games to engage in. There can be pros and cons of that. And so I'm going to be really trying to help encourage just healthy balance within the online space for my kids.

                                Right now, when I come home, I pick them up from school when I make some dinner and they watch some TV while I cook dinner. And when we turn off the TV, I give them their remote and say, okay, so my daughter would you want to pause it? And then my son, you can turn it off. And so I try to give them control already at a young age of how they can start to control their screen use. When it's time to turn it off, we need to turn off. We can have a healthy transition. It doesn't happen all the time. I try to, as much as possible, try to give them the sense of control in their screen time to help practice that at a young age.

Paige:                   That's so interesting. It's interesting too because I feel like I grew up in this generation where it was much more just TV, TV, TV, but all of us are still addict... We're like TV, we have to watch Netflix, we have to watch this. And I was the same when I was younger, I was like, oh, but my dad, my parents hated TV and they did not like it when I was growing up. I wasn't allowed to watch it at all during the week. And my dad was still, I remember he'd be like, oh the noise. But it's interesting now because it does seem like the Zoomers are coming up and they're much more just weird 3D VR. And then I put on VR glasses and I'm like, oh, this is awful.

Jeremy:                Yeah.

David:                   Because we're talking about online, do you do a lot of therapy online or is it mostly in person and what's the difference between the two?

Jeremy:                During the pandemic, I did a lot of online therapy. Currently, I have a hybrid model where I do see clients in person in my office, and I try to have as much in-person sessions as possible. I think in general it's good to have in-person interactions. I think it's just a better dynamic that can be within in-person setting versus online. I do a lot of online therapy as well. And so I think that it depends on the client and their motivation, their level of commitment to work.

                                But I have seen a lot of growth from the online space too. And so if we're able to close out of all other tabs and not do something in the background and really stay focused on the session online, I think that there can be a really great positive therapeutic connection. And a lot of good work can happen if there's an intent behind it, but sometimes not. Sometimes it's just like, you know what? You're not focused here. You don't want to be here. I can't make you be here. So I have seen this doesn't work sometimes.

Paige:                   Have you found that more and more therapists are moving to the online platform?

Jeremy:                Yeah, it's very convenient and I think there's going to be there... During the pandemic and then post pandemic, there have been some changes on where you can work. Your license really keeps you having to see people in your state. If you're licensed in Florida, if you're licensed in Texas, you have to see clients physically in those states that you're licensed in. During the pandemic, they relaxed that. So you were able to see clients outside of your state to provide them with mental health services.

                                And so I think in the future there's going to be, if you are a licensed professional counselor in Texas and there's similar reciprocity in other states, then you will be able to see them in other states in the future. I think there's not too many laws right now doing that, but I think that is coming down the pipe as well, because if you're seeing good clients and doing good work in Texas, then people live in different parts of the state, but people are people and they struggle with similar things, and so I think there's going to be more openness to relaxing those laws

Paige:                   Do you find that it's because of the online space, more people are becoming more willing to do therapy? It's almost open the doors to more people being interested because it's become so much more convenient or it's kind of the same?

Jeremy:                Convenience is a big piece I see, Paige, yeah. So a lot of my clients we were seeing in person, but then the pandemic hit and then we go back to as an option for in-person. We still are doing online therapy because it's very convenient. You can do work right up to your session time, jump on the session, and then go right back to work. Or even at school, if you got to miss a class for therapy, you go into a library or to a quiet room, do therapy and then go back to your classes. And so I think it is very convenient to hop into an online session. And a lot of therapists also, I think like the convenience for themselves, they can be wherever, they can be in a yacht, wherever still seeing clients as well.

Paige:                   Well, we really appreciate you coming on. This has been really interesting.

David:                   It really is great. And tell us just a little bit more about what caused you to decide this is what you're going to do in terms of helping people this way versus being a lawyer or something. I don't know.

Jeremy:                Honestly, in high school I liked to help people, I liked to talk to people. And so I was just going through my degree program. I was an engineer, then I was business. And I just remember sitting down... Yeah, well, my dad's a civil engineer and so I thought maybe I could do some engineering, people work. This could be fun. Math is hard and I suck at math, so try to rethink about stuff. But as basically, what do you like to do? What's something fun that you enjoy doing? And I like to help people.

                                And so got my counseling degree and really, really loved the material, loved the whole process and the theory behind it. And so I just got into it from enjoying to help people on the Enneagram kind of piece. I'm a two on the Enneagram kind of side, and I really find a lot of value in providing hopefully good services and quality services and I like to help people.

                                And so that's a little bit of that backstory. I love to game myself and I've had a struggle and a healthy relationship to it. My entire, my kids, my growing up, I played games with my brother and friends in the neighborhood. As an adult it got to be an issue, but now I game in a healthy, balanced way. So I still have that connection to it and I'm still able to connect with my clients and say, oh yeah, I can get the lingo and I can understand the draw.

                                So I see that I love the counseling world, but I also love to help advocate for those who sometimes don't, they're not heard, at least in Texas sometimes it can be a lot of shame around gaming and, oh, you should be this, you should do that. Rather than, I don't know why you're playing so many games when you should be studying for this. And so I love the complexity to it and trying to have people hear their stories and stuff.

David:                   Well, that's great. That's great. Yeah, well, you could obviously, very articulate and animated and into it, so it's so clear you like what you're doing. I'm sure you could have done great as a civil engineer if you wanted to.

Jeremy:                Thanks. Thank you.

Paige:                   Yeah, but what a snooze. I'm kidding.

David:                   Somebody's [inaudible 00:54:54].

Jeremy:                It'd be pretty cool. My dad loves it, so there's some perks too it, but yeah.

Paige:                   Well, thank you so much again for coming on. We really appreciate it.

Jeremy:                Yeah, thank you, Paige. Thank you David for having me on.

Paige:                   Thank you for listening to Disarming Data and thank you to Eric Montgomery for producing this podcast. To support the podcast, please rate, review, and follow on Apple podcast or wherever you listen. If you'd like to learn more about the current state of data security, head on over to our website, disarmingdata.com.